Some of you may have heard that The Independent newspaper has decided to drop the daily cryptic crossword with effect from the end of October 2026. I believe that the last puzzle will appear on October 31st. Incidentally the day before Fifteensquared’s 20th birthday.
I believe that there are a number of threads buzzing around on social media but I hardly use social media these days.
I’m hoping that this post can serve as a central point of contact where solvers can voice their opinions in the hope that the power-that-be have a change of heart.
Please make your feelings known in the comments below but REMEMBER to keep everything respectful.
This site does not encourage anonymous comments so if you feel you want to comment but don’t want your name associated with your comments, then please email me at the site’s admin email address and I’ll see what I can do.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
kenmac
(admin)
Mike gave me my entry into the world of setters. The Indy gave me my first major outlet and I will forever be grateful. After busy work times I was hoping to get back into the swing, but – sadly – it appears that door is closed. The i reprints older puzzles in any case, so I don’t see why they can’t continue to print newer ones. Anyway, my six-penn’orth.
Skinny
As one of the many setters who was proud to make their national debut in the Independent, and a near-daily solver of the crossword, I sincerely hope this decision is reversed.
Alongside providing a high-quality, distinctive daily cryptic, the Independent has been a vital route for new setters to make their mark. It is a crucial part of the wider ecosystem, and its loss would be felt far more widely than just among the setters and solvers of that particular series.
Amoeba / Weatherman / Tango
That is a shame I hope it’s something that can be reversed.
I know the data is unlikely to be shared but judging from the comments on Guardian puzzles here and the number of comments for the Times and Telegraph on other sites, the Indy appears significantly less popular than those other papers. It is a shame as they were on par in terms of quality with the others and was good to see some fresh setters more frequently.
I am not sure what the business objective is with cryptics (selling or maintaining paper/subscriptions sales, generating clicks etc) but solvers are creatures of habit. I am guilty of that in that I do the Times and Guardian everyday with others done depending on setter and time available. Maybe it’s hard to win people over regardless of crossword quality. The online interface didn’t help either.
Let me know if a petition starts up as I am going to miss my Sunday Filbert solve.
I will really miss my Sunday Filbert, Friday Phi, fortnightly Eccles and all the new setters the Independent has introduced us to (our own PostMark/Stamp not least among them). Perhaps if more people commented on the Independent blogs, it might show how much interest there still is?
This is sad news to hear. I’ve been doing the Indy cryptic daily for over 2 years and it’s become part of my daily routine (usually around mid-morning although sometimes mid-afternoon) and something I look forward to doing each day
I’m hoping that the Indy reverse their decision but I have a horrible feeling that it’s already set in stone. Here’s hoping that if there’s enough attention from the crossword community then the Indy might change their minds
This is such bad news. Mike Hutchinson has done an amazing job in providing new setters with an opportunity to be published nationally. I will be forever grateful for that. This decision will undoubtedly make the cryptic crossword community a poorer place. I sincerely hope that the “powers that be” can reconsider this move.
If anything is going to get bigger in the future AI slop ridden world it’s going to be cryptics. Someone needs to do a Goalhanger and get in early. I’m not a setter but will miss the high quality of the Indy compilers.
I’ll be very sad to see it go, for selfish reasons as well as general enjoyment. I’m another who owes Mike a debt of gratitude for starting me out as a “proper” setter.
It seems the decision is being made on the lack of clicks through to the web page, so perhaps if you’re an Indy dabbler, you could give it another go? I’m not mad on the interface, and I know no-one likes ads, but remember they are often the pipeline via which creators get paid, so if you do enjoy Indy puzzles, give that a thought.
I’ve also seen a couple of people say that they subscribe to The Independent mainly for the crossword. If that’s you, do say so here, please. The more public statements about the crosswords being loved and valued that The Indy can see (here or elsewhere), the better the (perhaps slim?) chance of a reversal of policy.
Spread the word, fellow solvers! And enjoy the next 6 weeks…
A decent quality crossword has been a hallmark of the decent quality press for decades. We all know newspapers are facing a decline in subscription numbers for deadwood copies and, with so much ‘free’ news on the Web, they may not be recouping with online subs what they’ve lost elsewhere. I am disappointed in the Indy’s decision and both the publication itself and the wider crossword world will certainly be the poorer for it. The Indy had a distinctive cruciverbal personality, a very wide range and style of setter and, as others have noted, it has been a gateway publication for many setters who are now more widely established. I also happen to think (though I would say this wouldn’t I) that the quality of Indy puzzles has been extremely high.
I am surprised a paywall/puzzles subscription route was not explored. I have puzzles subs with Times and Telegraph and would have happily taken one out with the Indy.
I’m another who hopes the powers that be will reconsider but rather fear the money men have had their say and they probably don’t do the crosswords anyway!
PostMark/Stamp/Frank/Rowland
As former blogger of the Indy who solved it on paper for as long as it was possible over 35 years, I’m deeply saddened by this, feels like a death in the family. As new setters often used the exposure in the Indy as a springboard for their careers the hopes of new setters will be hit by this too.
The loss of the daily cryptic crossword in the independent will noticeably dilute the intellectual level of the publication. I’ve been an Independent subscriber for many years both in paper and more recently in App format but without the Cryptic crossword I’ll be migrating elsewhere – probably the Guardian.
Whilst a reversal on this decision to axe the cryptic would be ideal I doubt it will happen so if anyone has recommendations for a comparable week’s selection of puzzles I’d be interested to hear your views.
While agreeing this is sad news, I’d like to use this opportunity to ask a question: The i Paper, formerly linked with The Independent, also has a daily cryptic crossword – apparently free though requiring subscription – which as far as I can see hasn’t been covered on this site so far. Could it be considered as a replacement maybe?
I only solved it once, and it seemed good quality, though I can’t really say more
The i has used 4-5 year old Indy puzzles which have been blogged here previously, perhaps they could take the Indy team over.
@Layman #12 – these are paper ‘reprints’ of what had appeared online perhaps a couple of years previously. The setters don’t get paid for these.
Doing a bit of maths here. 6 puzzles per week 52 weeks = 312 puzzles. Paying at £100 each (which they have been for a long time) this equates to a yearly cost for the cryptic only of £31,200, which in newspaper terms, is nothing.
Remember – we also have a variety of puzzles every day, and once a week – Enigmatic Variations, which had avoided the chop at least once before.
In the grand scheme of things, it’s no money at all to keep a loyal solvership happy, and maintain a healthy stable of talented setters.
I have been doing the Independent crossword- initially in the printed newspaper and subsequently in the i- paper (4 years late) since the inception of the slot, having migrated from the Times. For me the range of setters, the regular themes and Ninas and the relaxed humour of many setters makes it the standout daily crossword. I was just nerving myself to submit a crossword to the Independent myself, but I suppose I will have to look elsewhere! I would happily pay a subscription to maintain the Indy puzzle.
Skinny @14: Indy is every day of the year (I once had Christmas Day!) so it’s £36,500 on the material. I don’t know whether Mike is full time as editor – I’ve had messages from him on just about every day of the week inc weekends – but there will be an editorial salary. Then there will be the costs of the web-site management and some admin/typesetting I guess. That said, I agree with your overall view: if a few tens of thousands are of such material importance that the Indy is willing to compromise on a long-standing element of its offering, they must really be in trouble! It may be that more than the crossword is soon to disappear …
Well, that’s a shame – it was the main reason I bothered with a paper at all, and had grown to favour the Indy crosswords (and their later appearances in the i) over the Guardian and Times. I hope they have a change of heart and reinstate it.
My partner and I do The i’s crossword daily – current streak 1585 consecutive days – and since these are reprints from the Indy presumably this decision will impact on The i further down the line.
For my part, these are excellent puzzles. I do the Times a couple of times a week (finish about 70%) and the FT most days (80% completion). In my view the Indy crosswords are of comparable standard and often more enjoyable. This is a most regrettable decision but I don’t suppose there’s much to be done to remedy it.
My thanks to Phi et al for their brilliant puzzles.
I’m another who’s been proud to set puzzles for The Independent as part of a great team made up esteemed old-timers and new blood. I’m especially grateful to Mike for letting me get away with some rather unorthodox grids. It would be a real shame if this distinctive feature of the UK crossword landscape disappeared.
I suspect the Indy has made its mind up, but I really hope The i Paper can take the series on, especially since recycled Indy puzzles (at no extra payment to setters) have helped sell physical copies of the i for many years.
I love the Independent’s cryptic and have seen it be a huge opportunity for setters who deserved that opportunity. Seeing it go away would be a total shame.
I’m very sad to hear this news, especially because only last week I finally mustered up the courage to submit to the Independent as a debut setter. It has played such an important role in the cryptic crossword space and it’s a tragedy to see that go away 🙁
An Indy crossword has been the publication debut for so many excellent setters, and that in itself is just one example of how important it is to the UK crossword landscape. A good number of my favourite setters got their start there, so even if the decision is not reversed I do think the Indy and Mike as crossword editor in particular have earned a place in the cryptic crossword hall of fame… it’s just a shame that the powers that be don’t seem to appreciate what a key part of the newspaper’s identity it is, at least to some of us.
I echo the preceding comments that suggest a ‘straightforward’ (looking outside-in, at any rate) solution might be for the ‘i’ Paper to pick up the baton. Apart from anything else, at some point the Indy reprints will run out and the ‘i’ will (hopefully) recognise that the gap needs to be filled. The ‘i’ is the home of Inquisitor, my very favourite crossword series, and one would hope that a paper with such a prestigious flagship weekly crossword series does understand the significance of a good ‘regular cryptic’ puzzle offering on a daily basis.
So fingers crossed that either the Indy decision gets reversed (seems quite unlikely) or the ‘i’ sees the value in taking over the series in some form.
I’ve done the Indy x-word pretty much every day for 30 years or so in print and online and am very sad. Like several others I’d be happy to pay a sub to an Indy x-word club like that for the Times if that would keep it going. Thanks to all the setters and bloggers who have made the experience so pleasant.
There are not that many places in the world one can reliably go for a high-quality cryptic, and losing one pillar of that in the Indy feels like a great tragedy. I do hope for either a reversal, a migration to the i, or perhaps some other novel way to retain the spirit and community of Indy setters.
This is sad news. I have enjoyed many of the Indy setters and I hope I can find their work elsewhere if this decision is final. I’m another who would pay for a puzzle subscription. That’s what I do with the NY Times just to do its Spelling Bee, my ‘cool down’ after my attempts to solve a variety of cryptics.
I’ve been doing the Indy crossword every day for years and I’ll be genuinely heartbroken if it goes away. I’d be more than happy to chip in a monthly sub for anywhere that picks it up.
And as an amateur setter who was hoping to have a puzzle published there at some point, it feels like such a loss. So many of my favourite setters have started out there.
I must confess that I seldom attempt the Independent cryptic when it first comes out, BUT I’ve been doing it in its dead-tree repeats the i Paper cryptic pretty much every day since it launched and cost just 20p. I’ve progressed from hopeless, via hopeful, to some sort of competent. I love it, subscribe to the newspaper because of it, and dearly hope that it will continue somehow… Perhaps becoming an ‘up-to-date’ cryptic in the i rather than recycled? Whilst retaining sympathy for the Indy solvers, that would be a scenario that I personally could live with, and selfishly speaking even be happier with.
I no longer do the Independent crossword these days as the online interface is truly execrable, unless, that is, as has often happened a friend has a debut crosword that day. I do regularly (though not every day) buy the i and usually enjoy the recycled Indy crosswords. I would willingly pay for a puzzles subscription for the Indy but not with their current solving interface.
Yours somewhat grumpily,
Outraged of Tonbridge Wells.
Pretty horrendous news for setters and solvers – and for the Independent as well, I would think. I don’t hear much about the Indie these days but if it ever came up in conversation the first thing I would say is “it has a surprisingly good crossword, you know” – it’s a seal of quality that makes it present as an online-only broadsheet newspaper rather than a random website. Now it’s chosen to be a random website.
Thanks and commiserations to the crossword editor, the incredible array of setters, and to the higher-ups who kept it going as long as they did, I suppose.
I can only echo the sentiments of the other setters who have posted here and express my sadness that the higher-ups at the Indy have decided to make this decision. I hope that if setters and solvers can work together to cause enough of an uproar, the paper will remember the old newspaper adage ‘Don’t screw around with the crossword!:
We are one couple who have subscribed to the Independent online ever since it stopped printing, with our daily crossword as the major reason to do so. By subscribing we get a reasonable format, to answer someone who asked why we pay. It’s very likely we will stop paying 12.99 a month once the crossword goes, because we have also become annoyed with the tabloidisation of the comment and news in the paper. But it won’t take many of us to do the same to cost the paper more than they save. I guess we’ll have to gird our loins for the Guardian.
I’ve probably been the crossword since the paper started. (I print off the puzzle from the puzzles. independent website.) I’ll be sorry to see it go.
Adding my voice to the chorus lamenting this decision by The Independent. I hope that it can be reconsidered or that another path can be found to save the series. Under Mike’s leadership the Independent has not only produced a stream of reliably excellent puzzles but has also given new setters (like me) a path to publication. The proposed discontinuation would be a great loss not only to the cryptic crossword community but also, I would have thought, to the newspaper itself. A high-quality crossword is a fairly inexpensive badge of quality. As others have noted above, the annual cost of producing and publishing the puzzles might be estimated at around £100,000. That figure is perhaps modest enough to give us hope that a rescue plan can be put together.
As some have said before, the puzzle not having the best situation online has not been helpful, and as far as I can tell management has done little to raise or highlight its profile.
It quickly became a highly prestigious puzzle within months of its launch 40 years ago with an amazing pantheon of renowned setters, and Mike Hutchinson has been brilliant at maintaining that quality since he took over the reins.
The i Paper taking it over would be a great opportunity to relaunch it in print and online with attendant publicity as a top-quality puzzle – that would bring even more to the paper. With The Guardian 15 x 15 cryptics slowly losing their mojo now, that shouldn’t be underestimated.
[PostMark @16, I think Skinny @14 was talking about The i Paper as 6 days a week (one edition covers the weekend).]
We have been faithful crossworders with the Independent for as long as we can remember, and are feeling bereft. The crossword isn’t the only reason for subscribing but it’s a major one and may tip us into the Guardian.
Mike and Linda
Shame on the Independent… The i Paper taking it on would be great, and they did for one week feature original puzzles many moons ago. Suppose it depends on the economics, and how long their current contract with the Independent for news, features, as well as the puzzles, lasts. Suspect we will find out just how valuable to the paper the cryptic is.
I’ve been doing the Independent online for many years now and will be desperately sorry to lose it. But I can’t really complain too much as I don’t pay them anything and I use a browser that blocks all the ads. I’d be happy to pay a (modest!) subscription to keep it going.
Sorry, I don’t feel like being respectful. This is an utterly stupid decision by short-sighted bean counters at the Indie who should be ashamed of themselves for not giving easily the best thing they’ve got the attention and profile it deserves.
What a loss, I will sorely miss their crosswords as I do five cryptics every day, so that’s one less.
I’m an offshore solver so in a different category to commenters here. I download the puzzle everyday from https://puzzles.independent.co.uk/games/cryptic-crossword-independent. I have no issues with the software and I ignore any advertising but it’s never a problem anyway. I am wondering how this happens? Does the Independent get paid for this by the website? Maybe it presents a business opportunity for someone? Keep the whole thing going privately. But that would divorce it from the newspaper and newspapers and cryptic crosswords seem to go hand in hand for UK solvers. I have tried to solve the Independent puzzle most days since 2021 so I will miss it but I’m used to losing stuff as I get older. I’ll have to fill in my morning with something else. I have a modest subscription to the G and that’s probably the better week of crosswords IMHO.
[This turned out quite long…]
I have in my files ‘the last Enigmatic Variations puzzle’ which reached a near-complete stage between the announcement of the ending of the series in 2020, and the reversal of the same decision some weeks later. So things can change.
At the same time, Beelzebub puzzles now only exist on my website (https://phionline.net.nz/ – do look them out if you’re missing them still). So things also don’t change.
I think we have to acknowledge that it’s solver numbers that will swing this – setters will be seen as having a vested interest (and the fact that they solve the other puzzles discounted). It’s encouraging to see a number of unfamiliar bylines on this thread, which reveals that even on fifteensquared there are people who solve but fly under the radar. The story from several decades ago was that the Listener editor decided to terminate the puzzle, but the announcement generated far more letters of complaint than there were ever entries.
How many are there under the radar in the wider solving community? What is the tally on the other social media sites (like Ken, I don’t peruse them often enough)? We can get an estimate of barred-puzzle fans from the Crossword Club and Magpie (I’m sure they’d share order-of-magnitude numbers), but daily puzzles must be considered to be a much larger community.
Just to be a little snarky, it’s fine to say: ‘I’d do anything to save the puzzle’ but the response to that has to be ‘how much?’. How much for a daily puzzle in your inbox and a website overseeing the process? (And perhaps we could have the occasional Beelzebub.) With an estimate of £££, it would be possible to assess viability. It’s possible to estimate an annual charge of £X, but what is needed is for solvers to say they’d be willing to pay £Y. Then all we need is Y>X…
The Independent seems to have skipped the opportunity to offer a subscription to earn money from an aspect of the paper from people who don’t want all that tedious news they can get everywhere else.
The Independent site merits some criticism – it was not, I feel, designed to maximise solver interest. My experience in New Zealand is to click on Cryptic Crossword – ‘please watch this ad while your crossword loads’ – [NO AD] – ‘please watch this ad before starting to solve’ – [NO AD]. This is odd (I haven’t set up an ad blocker, though some sites seem to think I have) – elsewhere there are plenty of examples of ads for NZ companies implanted in UK and US websites, but whoever is overseeing the Independent site seems not to have tapped into that process. Which all suggests that there might still be options for advertisements to be better targeted.
I started doing the Independent crossword in earnest after the November 2024 US election, when I desperately needed more things to distract me from the news. (I had already been doing the Guardian for over a decade.) If the paper saves the crossword by making a reasonably priced games subscription, I’ll sign up. (Like Tony above, I subscribe to the NYT Games package, so this wouldn’t be new.)
Phi @41 (love your work, by the way): my experience is that the Independent crossword interface is perfectly capable of running ads targeted at not merely US customers, but even on occasion Chicago-based ones like me. Wonder why that doesn’t happen in NZ. And yet, I do sometimes get an empty ad–maybe they simply don’t sell enough ads? Still, finding that revenue source shouldn’t be that hard.
I’ve often had the same experience as you with the website – no ad blocker, but invisible ghost ads. It doesn’t deter me, but maybe it does others. And the cryptic being not greatly visible among other puzzles isn’t ideal.
I can understand why the decision was made in very basic terms if all it takes is falling clicks to trigger it (and as editor Mike Hutchinson has implied elsewhere, it could have easily been canned before now, even as soon as the paper going exclusively online), but I think the higher-ups have fundamentally overlooked the importance and tradition of the cryptic crossword to British newspapers. It really does bring in readers if it’s placed properly and given support and revived now and then. I hope The i Paper thinks about giving it a chance.
The paperback collection of Independent crosswords was one of the very first that I bought – back when it was “Newspaper of the Year”, halcyon days. The puzzles were superb then, 25 years ago (and Phi and Quixote are in there!), and the standard has been maintained since in difficult circumstances. I’m grateful to Mike/Eimi for being given the chance to set puzzles there.
I have bought a paper copy of the i/Independent since it was first published, primarily for the crossword. It appears that my subscription will need to be transferred to an allow a daily dose of solving. Very sad and maybe a little shortsighted of The I.
That is hugely disappointing news. Like Nicholas @44 I bought the first paper copy of the Independent when it started back in 1986 and continued with the i paper when its big sister at the time went online. The Indy crossword has always been ‘my’ cryptic and I’ve appreciated the quality and range of the puzzles and the fact that Mike has brought on board some new talent. I started blogging for 225 in 2010: I was a less confident solver back then and only offered to do the Quiptic and the Everyman; but I subsequently put my name down for the Independent on Sunday and the Monday Indy, since these were generally populated with puzzles at the easier end.
This will be a harsh commercial decision, which we should certainly rail against. Who knows if that will make a difference or not? Better not to die wondering. On a personal level, I will miss blogging the Indy puzzles. There were never as many comments as on some of the other threads, but there was always an intelligent and entertaining discussion of the puzzle and often an excursion into some interesting rabbit hole.
This is where I intended to source my second daily cryptic puzzle when I no longer need the FT for work. I hope the possibility remains open.
Pierre beat us to it with many of his comments. We bought the first Independent paper copy and compared it with our regular Guardian for a few weeks. We subsequently cancelled the Guardian, purely on the basis of the standard of the cryptic puzzle.
If we went away, paper copies were saved for us so we think we can count on one hand, the number of puzzles we HAVEN’T solved.
Going on-line was easier as we could get our daily fix whenever and wherever we were.
We also subscribe to the i newspaper – no point solving the cryptic as we have already solved them but we were so pleased when they ‘saved’ the IQ.
If the Indy drops the cryptic then they will lose our subscription and our son who is also a crossword addict will do the same. He, like us has the two subscriptions, purely for the crossword as the web version of the puzzle in the Indy is not user friendly.
We blog the Independent regularly and will miss it dearly. As Pierre says, there are fewer comments but they are worth reading unlike some of the comments elsewhere.
Given that we already pay a subscription for the Indy purely for the crossword, we would happily pay the same amount for a dedicated site which published them each day.
Let’s hope the powers that be at the Indy are listening.
Quite simply, I wouldn’t buy the i if it didn’t have a cryptic crossword
As another who bought the Independent daily from the very first issue, and who now pays £2.99 a week for a subscription to the online version, this is a sad day. We will not be maintaining our subscription when the crossword disappears. (Is it confirmed that the online newspaper will be continuing? Have we just heard about the crossword ending because we have an inside track? )
Add me to the chorus of those who’ll be very sad to see it go.
I’m hugely grateful to Mike for his help, advice and encouragement in my early adventures in setting and think the Independent stable is top notch.
Curiously, I’m receiving e-mails telling they can’t take my payments for my subscription but I wonder if you even need a subscription to see the puzzle on the puzzles website.
I joined early on in the 80s and contributed over 1200 puzzles to the Indy and (mainly) Sindy. Haven’t looked at the e-paper, but found myself being recycled in the I for several years and insisted they gave me a free subscription as payment. ( I now buy the i!) The editors were all fine, but the paper miscounted my Sindy 1000 and offered no word of congratulation, let alone hospitality. The payment I negotiated was slightly above the (ever more) miserable £100. I am glad that others found an entry into professional setting through this paper, but I am not surprised to see the crossword go. It died for me in about 2015. Sorry for Mike though.
Don Quixote
I currently do the Indy crossword on paper (printing it from the website on the back of all the 1-sided cr*p I receive in the post) but would be more than happy to pay a sub for the crossword to continue.
The Indy setters each have their own personality but there is an overall relaxed and slightly irreverent tone to the puzzles also.
They are simply more fun than those elsewhere.
Please reconsider this decision….
I learned to solve cryptics in the University of Manchester refectory with a bunch of fellow students over coffee between lectures on Russian nihilists and irregular verbs. I cut my teeth on Mass, Aelred, Quixote et al. This is a sad development and a completely avoidable one if they had actually bothered to make the solving interface a pleasant and easily-navigable one on the site.
Good though it is to see the majority of posters expressing disappointment at this decision, I rather fear decision-makers at the Indy are unlikely to visit this thread on 225. I am also told it is unlikely that the Indy will announce its decision to its wider audience meaning those who enjoy the crossword will only find out when it fails to appear from November 1st. Which is a shame as I suspect there may be a wider community of folk who might consider moving away from the site completely if the crossword disappears. And who might have voiced their feelings had they known in advance.
We can at least voice ours directly to the Indy. Looking at the website for contact details, I see they do helpfully list the email address for the Managing Editor, Richard Best, as managingeditor@independent.co.uk
I’d happily pay a reasonable subscription for the Indy crossword, it will be a sad day if it disappears.
Agree with what’s been said above about the Indie (under Mass, Calmac and Eimi) giving so many of today’s setters their first opportunity to get a foot on the cryptic ladder, and for that reason alone it’s worth preserving.
Interestingly, stats of 225 commenting data (in the window 01-01-2025 – 22-09-2026) reveal that the average number of daily comments for the (G, I, FT) are respectively (58, 12, 14); I hadn’t realised the last two figures were so close. I’ve asked Admin if they can add a relevant graphic to this thread to illustrate such data.
Click here for graph
If it transpires to be true that the Independent is indeed planning to scrap the daily cryptic crossword, it’s not only a disappointment for thousands of solvers, but also a retrograde step for the newspaper.
A decent cryptic crossword has been and remains a hallmark of quality British newspapers. Those who enjoy the daily mental gymnastics of untangling clever clues (like us) will inevitably turn to an alternative (and rival) publication for their regular dose of brain-teaser.
So, we would hope that the Independent will reconsider this decision in light of the damage it can and will do to circulation figures, which in turn impact the paper’s attractiveness to potential advertisers.
We might challenge the money men behind this proposal to solve the following anagram, to recognise the possible consequences of their decision: Have a GANDER at what cancelling crosswords could cause for your circulation.
I echo the many pleas above to save the Independent crossword. It is high quality, almost always entertaining and has a very distinctive style vs the Guardian and FT (I do all 3 most days).
I must confess, however, that I do not pay a subscription, because I do not want the news sections – I buy the i maybe every other day on average.
I don’t want to subscribe to an online news outlet (though I used to buy the paper alternating with The Guardian), but
I’d be very happy to pay a ‘crossword-only’ subscription.
I really hope the Independent crossword can be saved.
It’s incredibly sad news. I echo the comments above. I think Mike (eimi), along with the late, great Neil Shepherd (Klingsor, Alberich) have done more for aspiring setters than anyone. I don’t really solve many puzzles these days, but, I try to do the Sunday Filbert puzzles and I would really miss those.
I’m afraid that this might be the beginning of the end for cryptics: I hope I’m wrong. I’d be interested in seeing data on how many people solve the puzzles in the broadsheets. Based on no data, just gut feeling, it feels like an increasingly diminishing audience, to me.
60 odd comments in, I have not been able to read every single comment so I don’t know if anywhere above anyone had explained or tried to explain the reasoning behind this incredibly sad and in my view ill judged decision.
The program that runs the Indy crossword online belongs to an American company as far as I understand it and possibly this is a cost saving exercise for the paper.
But how shortsighted!!
I have been paying a simple “Supporter” sub to the Guardian for years in order to do the crosswords and equally supported the Telegraph with a Crosswords Only sub .
Given that they must already have the systems in place in order to collect subscriptions for the main paper how difficult could it be to set up a Crosswords Sub for the Indy!
It would be perfectly easy to calculate what the sub would have to be to break even and keep a very fine form of entertainment going.
Beyond Sad!
A huge shame. I’ve been trying to do a daily cryptic for years and the Indy is by far my favourite: consistently excellent, challenging puzzles and fresh streets being introduced. I hope that they’re a way to save the Indy cryptic.
It’s comforting to read the outpouring of affection for the Indy crossword and the chorus of disapproval at the decision to discontinue the series. Rather than repeat points already made, I’ll just reiterate the excellent suggestion made by PM@55 about lobbying the Independent directly. It would be great if they understood the strength of feeling about this and that there was likely to be a healthy demand for a subscription-based puzzle.
This is a very disappointing decision. The Independent’s cryptic crossword rivals the puzzles in the traditional broadsheets for quality, often leading them in inventiveness, and its presence has helped to support the paper’s continuing claim to be counted among the quality dailies. Its loss will be felt both by the Independent’s readers and by the very many new setters (I’ve taught 33 of them!) for whom it’s been an essential route into professional puzzle setting. Let’s hope that the paper’s board is listening to their readers’ comments and is prepared to reconsider.
MIKE HUTCHINSON – Indy Crossword, I am simply heartbroken, I feel cross! This wonderful crossword and others that Mike does has carried me during dark times on many occasions. My father and stepmother would sit for hours together doing it. I know I speak for many readers when I say this is a sad loss and will touch many people if The Independent do stop it! As my dear Dad used to say, nothing can touch it….
MIKE HUTCHINSON – Indy Crossword, I am simply heartbroken. This wonderful crossword and others that Mike does has carried me during dark times on many occasions. My father and stepmother would sit for hours together doing it. I know I speak for many readers when I say this is a sad loss and will touch many people if The Independent do stop it! As my dear Dad used to say, nothing can touch it….
FWIW, I’ve been a print subscriber to the i paper since its launch, and the Indy crossword reprints therein are a very big part of that. So even with the four-year buffer, the prospect of their discontinuation would loom heavily over my annual renewal.
If the decision here really is a fait accompli, then I add my voice to those hoping that the purse-string holders at the i would see the benefit in picking up the crossword…
Thank you all for the support expressed here. It’s a bit like being at your funeral before you’re actually dead, so thank you for the eulogies.
There’s a limit to what I can say here because not all the information is in the public domain, but I had to inform the setters so that I didn’t get inundated with crosswords that I couldn’t use.
We are looking at a number of options to avoid breaking up the band, as it were. The Independent crossword is different and I hope there’s still a place for it somewhere in the future.
It’s a “Big Yellow Taxi” moment for the Indy.
Whoever did the Cost/Benefit analysis on this ill-judged decision risks alienating/ losing a demographic they should be prizing.
In accounting terms, Goodwill is an intangible fixed asset, but in business it’s priceless.
When our favourite setters ( and they are all darned good ) find new outlets – and they will – we’ll be moving with them.
We may all be spitting into the wind, but, could not one or more of us who have Indy connections actually bring this very chain of posts to one of the powers that be?
Doubtless it’s a minuscule fraction of those who treasure the Indy cryptic, yet it is already sizeable, in only 24 hours. Re-crunch the numbers, bean-counters. To quote James Bond, as he battles the evil newspaper baron in “Tomorrow Never Dies”…
“GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT”.
I’m afraid I didn’t realise that the Independent still exists!
Coincidence, as mentioned, that the date proposed for the end is almost exactly twenty years since 15sq started. I was very proud to be part of that start-up and chose my blogging name appropriately. Hope that name will not now become redundant. There were previous instances where shutting down crosswords was suggested and then abandoned after protests such as this (Listener and Enigmatic Variations – both still going strong – come to mind). I guess publishers do listen to their readers. Let’s hope they do so again this time.
This is very disappointing. I would second everything PostMark said at #9 (as far as I can as a solver not a setter). Always found it a sweet spot for my skill level, and it was one of my reasons for taking out an online sub, which I may need to reconsider now.
As a setter and solver of the Indy, I have been saddened by this news. I want to sincerely thank Mike for giving me (and many of the setters) our start at setting professionally. I don’t know where I would be without the Indy. I know many promising new setters who will no longer have a place to begin. I really hope this decision is reversed or a new option is found.
What sad news.
I first came across the Independent as a student about a year after it started. The crossword lured me away from The Today newspaper which I had been reading because of the colour photographs (which was an innovation.)
And I have attempted it pretty well daily since then. I stuck with The Independent because of the crossword long after I stopped reading the paper, until finally giving up on it when I discovered the crossword online.
It has always been fresh, fun, challenging. For many many years it beat me more than I beat it but, now that I have retired my hit rate has been getting better and better and I very much enjoy my daily tussle.
As others have mentioned I would be very happy to pay a subscription to support this excellent group of setters.
One more voice in the general chorus: I really enjoy these puzzles, particularly the wide range of different setters, and it’s always good to see a new name. I really hope the Indy reverses this decision, or finds someone else who can give these puzzles a home. Perhaps a relaunch might get them some publicity and the wider audience they deserve? And I’d consider a subscription if that’s what it takes.
I just received an email from the Independent promoting their App, saying that it will be now reserved for “Independent Members” – a subscription model obviously. The promo offers membership at just £1 for the first six months. Interestingly, along with in-depth news and comment, podcasts and opportunities for interaction, the email invites users to “Challenge yourself” with “Must-play games and puzzles” next to a graphic that includes sudoku, codewords and both concise and cryptic crosswords. Make of this what you will.
I don’t regularly solve the Independent crossword*, but I’m obviously registered on their site, as I’ve just received an email that says:
“We’ve made some changes to how our app works. From today, access to the Independent app is reserved for our Independent Members, but don’t worry: you can still read our great journalism on The Independent website plus enjoy a select number of members-only articles each month, completely free.
Independent Membership is a new way to support the journalism you value and get more from The Independent in return, including unlimited access across the app and website, plus a range of extra benefits.”
&etc
* Hate the app – if, as usual, I solved on the tube, every time I looked at a different page, lost connection, someone looked at me funny … the advert sequence started again, and when I gave up there were a lot of ads that looked as if they were from the Israeli government justifying their actions.
Well, as far as I can tell, crosswords help sell newspapers. Shitty apps that make solving the crossword a pain in the arse presumably have a detrimental effect in that regard, but to survive, you need a puzzle.
Maybe The Indy never really got to make it as a big, bruising butch competitor in the qualities market, and the stipend for Indy setters was always substantially lower than that paid by e.g. Times, Telegraph and Grauniad. For that reason, as I understand it, some compilers refused to carry on setting Indy puzzles as it ‘wasn’t worth the effort’. That to me seemed illogical, as to get myself around and about — even if it were for fewer kebab tokens — appeared far more important. That’s ego for you. And also capitalism, as for that, working people into their graves for nothing is obviously the best idea.
I have no suggestions as to how to rescue the situation, as I know precisely nix about the business. Hope that helps. But I’m grateful to Mike, who is a top lad apart from anything else, and he put up with me when I was in my idiot phase (which according to some is even now only partially resolved). More importantly, with a gentle but nurturing editorial style, he brought on a host of cracking new setters, who will no doubt continue to ply their trade elsewhere.
The Indy puzzle was always a good solve, and if it does go under, I will miss both setting it and solving it.
I don’t often play the age card, but I have been doing cryptics since the sixth form. At 89, I do the Indy every day because I have plenty of time and relish the satisfied feeling of completing it. I suspect the brilliant setters aren’t highly paid and it seems a very shortsighted economy.
Jen Parry, Didcot
Long-standing Independent reader here. Started reading for Robert Fisk and that Bridget Jones column. Over the years I started to tackle the crossword – not always successfully but always entertained, unlike in some other publications – later discovered this site and although I never had much to say I enjoyed the elucidation it offers. But I have something to say now. The Independent without its distinctive cryptic crossword would be like the Palace of Westminster without the bongs of Big Ben – sure it might cost money to maintain, but it’s almost impossible to imagine without it.
Everything I wanted to say about this very disappointing decision has been said, particularly about a quality newspaper needing a quality cryptic crossword and about the idea of a puzzles subscription not being offered yet. So I’ll just respond to Phi’s suggestion that we solvers say what we’d be prepared to pay for a puzzles subscription. The Times has one at £4.99 a month and I’d certainly pay that for the Indy cryptic crossword. I have no major problem with the current interface as I print it out (so only one ad!) but I’d expect a better interface if I pay a subscription.
Thank you, Hoskins, for today’s very enjoyable crossword.
I’ve been an Indy Monday blogger for a long time and the Indy is the main crossword that I solve on a regular basis. I much prefer them to the Guardian and other newspapers/websites. I recently started blogging MyCrossword puzzles as well, partly out of fear that the Indy might eventually disappear and sadly it appears I was right on that. Let’s hope it can be saved or moved to a new home.
@Kenmac — Can I please suggest that PostMark’s excellent advice at comment #55 about emailing the Managing Editor be included in the main blog post?
It’s the best advice I’ve seen so far, but it’s already getting buried by the many subsequent posts!
Thanks.
I will just note in reply to Rob T @83 that I have had no response since emailing that address to voice my concerns. But then I have also had no email rejection/bad address message either so I have to both assume and hope it’s working.
I’ll be sad to see it go. The only British puzzle I had a chance in hell at completing. Steve of course the absolute best constructor, bringing authentic wordplay-based crossword themes to the operation. Sad for him and all others that are losing this opportunity.
A reminder from the universe, as if one was ever needed, that nothing no matter how good, is ever permanent.
As an addendum to some earlier comments, it is of interest that the app facilitating the online version of the Indy crossword has of late become very glitchy to the point where, today I ended up abandoning it about three quarters of the way through.
The puzzle exited of its own accord about seven times requiring me to view ads again before being let in and on at least two occasions it showed a “problem with http etc” message.
Like Nicholas @44 I only subscribe for the Cryptic, and merely skim the ‘news’ in the appalling iphone app (which would require a whole discussion to itself).
A truly remarkable blinkered decision which will turn to bite them.
I note Phi contributed @41, and I have to take this opportunity to thank him for the wonderful “Dentistry” which got me into the Inquisitor years back (the subject of another barmy decision).
Thanks, setters, for years of fun and interesting puzzles.
Bye, Independent.
On a personal note, I am glad but sad to read the posts on this fiasco, from so many very familiar “names”: the setters, bloggers , and posters, alike.
Our exchanges on 15sq re the Indy cryptic have been a total pleasure for me, over the years.
The sheer number ,the length, and the passions expressed, in the posts to this chain, speak volumes. Not to omit, a lot of bloody good common sense.
What I would say, is, come on you posters.
Get on the 15sq forum and support the Indy setters with feedback, on their work. Every day.
I’ve recently seen brilliant crosswords, getting as few as 3 comments.
A bean-counter would take that as “nobody is out there”.
Prove the buggers wrong. Vote with your fingers.
Leedsclimber@86 could have plucked the thought straight from my brain.
Still, I hope the series can be saved in some way and am adding my voice to the chorus, for what it’s worth.
Much of this discussion reminds me of this Matt cartoon from The Daily Telegraph around May 2004, I believe.
I am somewhat devastated by this. It has always been a personal ambition to set for the Indie, and suddenly it’s off the menu. I cut my solving teeth with Mass and co. back in the broadsheet days, and it has remained my “go to” crossword. It is, after all these years, something of a cultural pillar in my life.
Let’s hope that somebody steps in to save this many splendoured thing.
First of all, great commiserations to Mike Hutchinson who has been a great editor and is the real loser in this. A subscription to the Independent costs less than £3 per week, or less than 50p per crossword for those who do one every day. One supposes that digital analysis shows that not enough subscribers visit the crossword page. If you don’t pay you don’t get.
Have only just caught with this rather devastating development – the Independent has a stellar cast of setters, including my own favourite, Filbert, so we’ll just have to hope the powers that be can be convinced to reverse this particular ferret.
As an occasional Indy solver in recent years this has been a sad but interesting thread to read. The app is so dreadful it would seem that there’s been no respect for crosswords in the organisation for a long time. In particular the way the app works seems to be based on giving the user points for the number of puzzles solved regardless of what kind they are. So maybe more people were playing sudoku or pinochle or any of the hundreds of other games. But this overlooks the special attachment people have to crosswords. I don’t do sudokus but I imagine the only variety is in the format and that setting is entirely electronic. There’s no human element and it’s easy to find alternatives elsewhere. So they will naturally have their place in a free, ad-based, environment. But this is not the natural habitat for crosswords.
This is hugely disappointing and will leave a hole in my life. Add me to a list of people who would pay for a puzzle subscription to continue to be able to attempt to solve this crosswords.
I’m not an Indy solver, but, as others have said, a quality paper, such as the Indy reckons to be, should have a crossword. However, as has already been said on here, if you want any chance of them reversing their decision, complain to them – not just on here! See Postmark @55 – if nothing else, flood the editor’s inbox!
I’ve just seen this. The Indy crossword is my second of the day and without it I’ll probably never visit the website again. I’d assumed that the ads made it viable without a sub, I would happily pay a crossword subscription for it.
Having finally had enough of BBC’s lack of interest in the things that interest me I was looking at subscribing/supporting the Indy and Guardian last weekend after years of doing the puzzles for free but not reading articles. I was put off by not really understanding what I was paying for and whether I was constrained to using their apps when I prefer using the website so I parked the idea to come back to this week.
Suffice it to say, no cryptic, no Indy subscription.
This is a darn shame. The Independent crossword is always fun, challenging, diverse and fair, with a seemingly huge roster of talented setters, many of whom have already commented in this thread. Sincere thanks to them and their colleagues for all the fun. I hope they find work with other papers, if the Independent carries on with this appalling decision.
Like sophamore #40 i also play online at https://puzzles.independent.co.uk/games/cryptic-crossword-independent. So i pay nothing but would happily pay £10 month to continue being able to do the crossword. Love the crossword and some of the risqué clues and dread being restricted to The Times crossword that i pay a limited access for and then having to read the timesforthetimes blog where everyone posts their solving times. I always read this blog and enjoy it.
Surely the IT department of the Indy can display the Indy website and allow free access to the crossword but prevent you accessing the rest of the website unless you pay a fee. In this way, they are almost certain to tempt a number of us looking to complete the crossword to access other sections.
@ 102 But why should the Indrpendent spend money just to enable people to do the crossword for free? What about other special interest groups? What makes crosswords so special? Is it just a sense of entitlement?
We’ve been working through the I archive for a couple of years now…getting better with the help of this site. (Many thanks to all setters and bloggers…and also contributors, we enjoy the conversations.) This is the first time we have posted…and it is just to say that we are some of those unseen solvers ..this site may indeed be the tip of a very large iceberg.
Just like everyone else (except perhaps the poster @103) I am dismayed. To say “I feel sad” is really an understatement.
True, I am part of the group of affected setters headed by a formidable editor, Mike Hutchinson (eimi) but that is not the only reason to be angry. It worries me that The Independent unlike other nationals doesn’t see their cryptic crossword (in fact perhaps puzzles in general) as a real asset. Recently I opened the paper’s homepage at independent.co.uk to find there was no direct link at all to puzzles including the cryptic. You would expect that a serious newspaper has a link to “Puzzles” (not only to an original cryptic but also to a daily concise and perhaps a sudoku, a word search or a code word, also a weekly GK crossword and a regular barred one). Only a few more clicks and you will to find all kinds of games and puzzles on the Indy’s website, most of which is IMO ’dross’ or at best ‘run of the mill’ or recycled stuff like the late great Michael Curl’s Cincinnus and Orlando crosswords. These puzzles are behind an icon presenting themselves in the same way as other crosswords including our own beloved one, even with the same ads. I am by no means a business person and therefore inclined to take counting ‘hits’ with more than one pinch of salt.
If the powers-that-be stick to their short-sighted plans it would be best – like others suggested – that the i paper replaces their recycled cryptic with a new daily Independent cryptic crossword. That would the business boys cost money but in my (and other’s) estimation less than £ 50,000 a year plus the editor’s salary. For major businesses peanuts, I guess.
But for me the main thing is that the attitude (I would like to use the word ‘vision’) towards in particular cryptic crosswords needs a reset. A quality cryptic crossword is a valuable asset for any itself respecting media outlet.
Sil @ 105 I am very dismayed but if not enough people are prepared to stump up less than 50p for a puzzle I’m not surprised that it’s for the chop. Interestingly I was looking at the demographic for Bridge (both Bridge and crosswords seem to have started in the 1920’s), and the average age of one of the largest worldwide bodies was seventy-one. I suspect that is similar for crosswords and is hardly the most appealing audience for advertisers (unless they are flogging cheap cremations). I see far more people doing Sudoku than crosswords and the idea that the latter is a mark of a quality newspaper – well it might have been true once but most people are just not interested. The only way I can see that we can sustain our pleasant little pastime is to pay for it.
I haven’t done all the costings in detail, but my back-of-an-envelope calculations suggest that if we can get about 3,000 people to pay the equivalent of 10p a puzzle then the project would be viable. Getting the information to that number of people would be difficult unless I could get the Independent to direct people to the new site.
Short-sighted bean counters, as someone said above. And as someone else said above, papers sell partly as a result of their crossword. Now there will be less interest in the Indy online and it will sooner or later fold. Crazy and sad. Let’s hope that a solution is found, ideally by the Indy having a complete about-face and giving their crossword some support.
I’m very grateful to Mike for carrying five of my (Vernon) crosswords, but they have for various reasons now come to an end. Not a young setter who is hoping to make their mark in this world of crosswords, I feel sorry for those who are. And I enjoyed blogging the Indy for years (John) but have changed to Azed/Gemelo and Everyman.
The i don’t pay the setters for the crosswords that have appeared in the Indy a few years earlier, presumably to keep costs down, so I’d be surprised if they started to pay now.
The i gets the old Indy puzzles free because they pay for the Inquisitor at the weekend. If the flow of puzzles stops so will the Inquisitor.
Wiglaf @9 – The i Paper was getting the cryptics for years before the Inquisitor moved to the paper. My understanding is they get the cryptic crossword as part of a bigger package of news, opinion, puzzles, etc.
As per every other comment, this is very bad news. The Indy is the crossword I’ve been doing regularly for the longest time, in original print and happily through the website. The adverts don’t upset me, lack of access would upset me! Living in France it has been the only viable way of maintaining access, similarly with the FT. I would definitely support the concept of a subscription, IF the quality of setters, AND bloggers, without whom I’d only understand a fraction of the intricacies, let alone the Ninas, was maintained. I shall be using Postmarks link, to plead the case to the managerial class.
I agree this is bad news and every voice counts.
I’m an infrequent daily solver, but if this is a purely financial decision (if it comes down from management it has to be) then I would be prepared to pay a small fee to keep it running. It would encourage me to solve more as an added bonus.
Eimi Mike at 107 .
Is there a project in progress?
If yes, is there a link?
I ll sign up like a shot!!
I have been enjoying the Independent Cryptic crossword since it first came out. It is a quality crossword. It is one thing that draws me to the site. This is an extremely disappointing decision by those who are in charge over there at the moment.
I hope they reconsider.
What??? Oh no! Just registered this awful news. We don’t comment much as most of the other guys are more interesting, but we really must add our voices to those above with special thanks to the setters and the editor who have maintained such a wonderful standard over the years.
We start the day by printing the Grauniad, FT and Indy crosswords on paper and solve them at meal times (with 98% success). We’ve always loved cryptics but only since retirement have they really become such a part of our lives.
We spend much more time doing crosswords than watching Netflix so would gladly spend some of our pensions to keep them going.
I first started solving in 1978. I got better at it, to the extent in the early 00s that I had got bored with them. Then I was introduced to the I/Independent by John Henderson and he introduced me to Mike (a few years later). I still enjoy some of the stiffer challenges; and, there are a few friends who meet up with a stack of papers to go through them in the local.
At school many of the VIth form tutors now use puzzles, during tutorials, with the students. It has had a remarkable effect on some students’ progress.
Please keep this going.
As a separate thing: I would like to thank all of your setters, and especially Phi, Eimi and Nimrod.
Eimi#107 -Our Indy subscription is a lot more than 10p a day. If the crossword disappears then we would happily pay the same amount for just the cryptic puzzle. There would be no point subscribing to the Indy anymore. We already have an i subscription which we use for the IQ crossword, news, TV and other puzzles.
I remember buying the Indy when it first emerged as a print newspaper, thinking what a great concept it was, trying to do what it says on the tin, as it were. I appreciate newspapers have had and are having to adapt these days but this feels like a step too far. Phi is our mustn’t miss setter and I suppose/hope he will find other accessible outlets but I think the Indy should know that the cryptic is now one of our primary reasons for subscribing.
Very sad to read this news.
I started solving with the Guardian, and a load of old Araucaria books, but a few years ago my newspaper puzzle of choice switched to the Indy.
As well as really enjoying the puzzles themselves, I appreciate Mike’s keenness to pick up new setters – I’ve seen a lot of people I know from solving their puzzles on MyCrossword graduate into print via the Indy/i. A real shame to miss that opportunity – both for the setters to get into wider circulation, and for solvers to ‘meet’ some new setters.
Fingers crossed something can get sorted out, whether that be in the paper itself or even taking a punt on an ‘independent’ thing like a Patreon-type subscription thing.
As someone who runs a small crossword magazine I know there are people out there willing to pay for good puzzles, so one way or another there’s hope yet.
Hopefully we’ll hear more in due course about plans and can support accordingly.
eimi#107
If a subscription option becomes an actuality, might it be possible to have a basic subscription price (10p per crossword sounds like very little, but I’m sure you know!) and a “pay more if if you want” option. Because I would, and I’m sure others would, too.
chiming in from Kansas City to say that i love the Independent puzzle and play it every day (sometimes even right when it becomes available at midnight) and was very sad to hear about this decision. i hope something good happens!
Not much I can say that has not already been said but I can’t pass by this page without adding my two-pennyworth to the chorus of voices here. If the powers that be want to save some budget there must be other ways that don’t cut out a vital part of the Independent – I’m tempted to say how about dropping the absurd collection of other Arkadium games and puzzles on the site, which I’m pretty confident would not have such a passionate group of supporters.
I also love the independent puzzle and do it everyday. I do with they would keep it.
I am one of the under the radar solvers who has never posted a comment before although I do sometimes read them. If numbers of solvers is in any way persuasive I hope making this comment helps. Meanwhile thanks to all the setters especially for giving me something enjoyable to do at 3 a.m.
Another voice to the mix.
Just popping again to say I’ve been overwhelmed by the amount of love that’s being expressed for the Independent crossword. We set the crosswords and we hope they will be well received, but it’s touching to know how much they mean to people, that they’re not just a bonus add-on to a newspaper but an important part of people’s lives.
It gives me hope that something can be done.
Just adding my voice and name to this list. I discovered the joy of the indy crossword back when Virgilius was making me smile and getting me hooked. Really sad news.
I overheard, on a train, that getting your puzzle published in the national dailies gets you £200. If true this surely is not a financial decision.
#127 in the case of the Indy only half that
I wasn’t aware of the Indie’s plan and am dismayed. Like others, I bought the paper from its inception whenever I could. From around 2000 onwards, I bought the paper every weekday and did so as much for the crossword as for the news. I wanted the paper and its founding ideals to survive and viewed the various corporate takeovers and rescues with well-founded concern.
Ever since it went online, I bought the i instead and just made do with the reprinted puzzles. The only reason I buy the i is for the crossword, and the only reason I visit the Indie’s puzzles site is for the latest cryptic. I’d pay a subscription 10 quid a month to keep the market open for the Indie’s setters and whether that is on the current puzzles site (which I detest) or at a novel location is neither here nor there.
It’s nice to see so many people announcing what it means to them. The limited number of comments on the blogs here compared to those on the Guardian puzzles always made me feel that solving the Indie was a bit of a fringe activity and I’m glad to see it isn’t so.
I’ll be emailing the paper, as suggested above, now.
Another would-be subscriber here, and I’ll take this opportunity to voice my gratitude to, and support for, Mike and his team of setters for producing such high quality and entertaining puzzles over the years. Hope something can be done, and I will also write, as suggested, to the Managing Editor, Richard Best, as managingeditor@independent.co.uk. To borrow the sentiment from John Donne, the loss of the Indy cryptic diminishes us all! A sad reflection of the age we live in. Vive la Renaissance #126! Until then I’ll keep this from Emily Dickinson in mind!
“Hope” is the thing with feathers –
That perches in the soul –
And sings the tune without the words –
And never stops – at all –
And sweetest – in the Gale – is heard –
And sore must be the storm –
That could abash the little Bird
That kept so many warm –
I’ve heard it in the chillest land –
And on the strangest Sea –
Yet – never – in Extremity,
It asked a crumb – of me.
Let me add that yesterday I met a friend who does cryptics a bit . He’s only recently downloaded the Indy app, mainly to do the cryptic puzzles. Like me he was astonished at the news , when I told him, and can’t honestly see what they have to gain by this discontinuation.
I’m unhappy too – I’ve had fun setting for the past few years and I wish Mike success in sorting something out.
Just to let everyone know, this morning I sent the following email to the Indy Ed:
“ Dear Ed,
I am sure you must be well aware of the consternation expressed in the Fifteensquared blog pages at the news of your plans to end the publication of the cryptic crossword at the end of October.
I know a great many of us have been taking advantage of your generosity for years and accessing the cryptic free in exchange of simply putting up with some ads.
I think we can put this right and as some others have hinted in the blog I want to assure you that I for one would be happy to pay a full subscription to the Indy if I could receive an assurance that the cryptic will continue.
Yours sincerely”
I know not everyone is able or willing to do the same but I felt that as one who can I should make it clear to both sides.
Has anyone, who’s contacted The Independent, received any further reply yet?
I emailed the managing editor last Tuesday (22nd September). I haven’t received a reply, but I didn’t really expect one.
Simon at Cracking the Cryptic has his say:
https://youtu.be/F_JI33hLR_8?is=lEHelrOgUom-RAXF
Worth sharing this link with the bods at the Indy?
Sadly, Ken @133, I have received no reply either. Like duncan, I did not expect one. But it does leave me with the unknown – did he receive and ignore/choose not to reply or did he not receive?
I note the Indy site gives the following advice: Personal email addresses follow this format: firstname.lastname@independent.co.uk
These are the editorial team named on the web-site. I aim to send a follow up to some of the others using that format.
Editor-in-chief: Geordie Greig
UK Editor: Barney Henderson
US Editor: Louise Thomas
Deputy Editor: David Marley
Managing Editor: Richard Best (managingeditor@independent.co.uk)
Executive Editor: Jacqui Merrington
Executive Editor (Features): Vicki Harper
Assistant Editor: Caroline Gammell
Daily Edition Editor: Alastair Jamieson
Voices (comment) Editor: Samuel Fishwick
Culture Editor: Jessie Thompson
Have the Independent actually made any sort of official announcement? Do we know, for example, that they’re dropping the cryptic puzzle altogether and not, for example, planning to use computer generated puzzles as the Telegraph once considered? Or sourcing elsewhere? Just curious as to what exactly has been said, which obviously makes a difference to the communications sent to them. We’re getting awfully close to the end of October.
In reply to admin @133, I also emailed the managing editor on 25th September, and have not received a reply.
I subscribe to the independent only to solve the crossword. Sad to see this announcement.
This now has over 21,000 views in just 30 hours
https://youtu.be/F_JI33hLR_8?is=lEHelrOgUom-RAXF
Perhaps cryptic crosswords are important
First the sad news about the Indy crossword the find the i has gone up by 10p things just get worse!
Sad to hear. Enjoyed doing the Rodriguez when he was still setting.
I can only echo what has already been said but I’m very sad at the prospect of a world without the Indy crossword. As both a solver and a setter it’s a huge part of my life. I hope there can be a reversal or rebirth and like others I would pay for the creative and unique cryptics it represents.
FWIW, I have just received a reply from the Managing Editor:
Dear reader
Thank you for contacting us regarding The Independent cryptic crossword.
As you know, we have decided to end our cryptic crossword from later this year. The decision was not one taken lightly, but we could see that relatively small numbers of people were starting the crosswords each day, making them financially unsustainable.
We will, however, be adding several different types of new puzzle to our offering to members also later this year. We will additionally retain the daily concise crossword, and there will be a weekly general knowledge crossword. I realise that for some people this will not make up for the loss of the daily cryptic.
I am sorry this will not be the response you were hoping for, but thank you for taking the time to write in and make your feelings known.
Yours faithfully,
Richard Best
I have just had a reply from the Independent:
Dear reader
Thank you for contacting us regarding The Independent cryptic crossword.
As you know, we have decided to end our cryptic crossword from later this year. The decision was not one taken lightly, but we could see that relatively small numbers of people were starting the crosswords each day, making them financially unsustainable.
We will, however, be adding several different types of new puzzle to our offering to members also later this year. We will additionally retain the daily concise crossword, and there will be a weekly general knowledge crossword. I realise that for some people this will not make up for the loss of the daily cryptic.
I am sorry this will not be the response you were hoping for, but thank you for taking the time to write in and make your feelings known.
Yours faithfully,
Richard Best
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I didn’t expect a reply, so I am pleasantly surprised to get one, even though it doesn’t offer even a hint of a solution that I would like. I’m not really interested in the vaguely worded ‘different types of new puzzle’ he refers to. I wonder how many emails/letters of concern/complaint the Independent has received?
I have received the same reply.
And, again FWIW, my reply:
Sir,
Thank you for responding.
You are right, it is not the response I was hoping for. I still believe you are making the wrong decision.
Please see the following two web-links. One is to the comments being made on fifteensquared.net, the premier blogging site that has covered the Independent. You will see the number of people who a) would be prepared to pay a puzzles subscription (I pay such to the Times, the Telegraph and the Guardian) and b) who will close their subscription to the Indy altogether if there is no cryptic crossword. Given that those who actively comment on a blog are typically a very small percentage of those who actually engage with the matter in question, I suspect you will see a larger hit to your subscription income than you anticipate and you will be forgoing a larger source of crossword income that is available to you.
The other link is to an Independent crossword solved on YouTube by one of, if not the, leading solving site, Cracking the Cryptic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_JI33hLR_8 24,000 views and counting plus another load of comments from people who do not wish to lose the cryptic crossword.
Can I also suggest a modicum of self-appraisal by the Independent would not go amiss? Solvers have long been complaining about both the website – cluttered with mega-distracting advertisements that are a horrible distraction to someone trying to solve a serious puzzle – and the phone-app which makes attempting a puzzle nigh impossible. The sites actively dissuade solvers. The solving experience for every other serious newspaper is totally different.
And, finally, I am sorry but the remaining puzzles on the web-site are cheap tat. Utterly not worth doing. They are in no way whatsoever a replacement for the quality offering you have been able to put out over the years.
I would urge you to reconsider your decision in the light of feedback from your own readers.
As a long-time solver of the Independent cryptic crossword, and a blogger here of Indy cryptics for over a decade, I would be very sad to see this crossword disappear. Indeed, my cruciverbal life would be very different without it, that is for sure.
I do hope that a solution can be found, maybe one involving a new home for this crossword or a kind of subscription for those who might be prepared to pay for puzzles of such freshness and ingenuity, as I would be. I have often wondered why the i newspaper recycles old Indy crosswords when making newer puzzles available in this publication would make them available to a wider and perhaps new audience.
I hope that whoever has made the decision at Indy HQ will hear our pleas and think again.
Found out it was getting nixed via Cracking the Cryptic.
Gutted. It’s my favourite cryptic.
Wrote to the Indy, got the reply saying its definitely going this morning.
Which made me terribly sad, but also made me gird my loins to get some clues I’ve done over the last decade into a grid. Wylis
Fobbihg us off with a promise that they’ll keep the Concise Crossword is frankly insulting. I do do it from time to time when I’m at the loosest of loose ends but it’s essentially just the same as the Daily Mirror crossword from the 1980s. A vocabulary test.
Keeping the weekly GK going is good, but even then Arkadium sometimes make a right hash of publishing the correct one in sequence.
The managing editor’s reply seems to offer little hope, so it might be as well to start preparing the lifeboats
I’ve set up an email account merely to gauge interest – no obligation to subscribe if and when such a service is set up having been deemed viable
To register an interest please email trulyindependentcrosswords@gmail.com with the subject line truly
Please don’t include any messages as I won’t be replying individually at this stage
PM @148 – bravo for your response, someone needed to say it so thanks for sticking your head above the parapet!
@PM 148 nailed it Mark
Chiming in from Bahrain. I solve the Independent cryptics whenever I have time and it has undeniably been a great platform for cryptic setters making a debut.
There are many ways to manage the cost of running it and surely, paying crossword constructors should not be the reason. In fact, the remuneration is quite an insult to the time and dedication required and invested in creating each puzzle. Although cryptic crosswords remain a niche activity which may not have thousands of followers every day, it’s obviously one that provides a source of joy to so many dedicated followers. At a time when more Americans, Indians and the rest of the world is increasingly discovering the fascinating world of cryptics, it’s a shame that a much loved crossword that can be offered to a global audience is considering discontinuing it.
The management should rethink about how to make it viable and integrate it as part of its future offering of puzzles rather than forego what is a niche but much loved corner of their website.
eimi@151.
Maybe ask Admin to set up an new announcement in case people don’t come back to this thread?
@155
I will do that later today. Meanwhile, here’s some very interesting reading: Bad business decisions
Sadly I will be one of those who will cancel my subscription if the cryptic crossword is cancelled.
I’m not a setter(although I know personally and socialise with some of them and also top figures from the wider cruciverbal world)and am disappointed with this IMHO ill judged decision . I buy the i everyday purely for the crossword- I prefer to do it on paper rather than online. I support the voices of those calling for the i to take on the mantle and keep new puzzles coming.